MtM wrote:k1wi wrote:MtM suggested his proposal:
We make ba make instead off 1000 points, 100 points ( 10%), and smp instead of 100 points, 10 (10%).
We use 10% as a start as it's easy to use.
The next round, we use Y which I described should be based on the computation speed increase. This speed increase should be applied to both trajectories again, so let's assume we have a 10% speedup which have caused ba to be making 1000 points again, and smp 100 points = we normalize down by 10% for both and publish the 10% number so people can still see the how much computational/scientific effort was needed to make earn x credit. How does this influence the relative progression of a ba versus a regular smp instance? The BA instance will still earn the same amount of points more than the SMP instance relative to the total points obtainable.
First of all, I disagree with this proposal for a number of reasons, first that it is ambiguous:
1. Why are we differentiating between BA and SMP? It would be simpler to simply write PPD1 = PPD2/y1, which is exactly the concept I proposed in the original post and exactly the formula I proposed in the post prior to your suggestion.
2. By talking about BA and SMP separately, you are increasing the complexity of the adjustment - It is quite easy for people to read that proposal and suggest perhaps you are normalising BA to 1000 points and SMP to 100.
3. The 1/10th figure is completely arbitrary and appears 'simply thrown out there'. Amongst other things, massive. Far too large for a single adjustment. Why choose 10%? Why not make the value of new points half the value of original points? I have had to justify every single element of my posts including exactly how to calculate the value of technological improvement (and have the examples of how it can be calculated then used as a vector to shoot down my entire proposal) and I think so should you.
4. If what you are attempting to propose has the same effect as my original proposal, why not use the formula that I proposed in the
prior post? As per point 1, my formula is much more simple.
Wait what? I didn't suggest that, I explained
MY INITIAL SUGGESTION using that example.
1. We are not, the 10% is the same for smp and ba and only used to showcase that relative numbers are not changing!
2/3/4 Your idea? You came up with 'dollar value'... I came up using Y as computational relationship. This is not your idea
In the initial post I said that "As I see it, the easiest way to keep 'PPD inflation' from going nuclear, is to adjust the benchmark machine to the rate of CPU Improvement. At a defined interval (annually is probably too infrequent, but monthly may be too frequently), adjust the benchmark machine's PPD to reflect the improvements of computing power." In other words, from the first post I said that PPD should be continuously adjusted to reflect increasing computational power, or, in formula form PPDn / Yn. Do you disagree with this?
Mtm wrote:k1wi wrote:P.S. Has anyone been able to advance my theories around accounting for technological improvement in the speed ratio?
Seriously, stop this
Do you really need me to quote you again on your dollar value and link to the post where I said you should use the computational ratio instead? Admit you had a totaly different idea in mind and you changed this after me pointing out the obvious flaws in it and offering this alternative which has a much higher chance of being succesfull.Really, it's not done to try and claim something which is so obviously not your own idea.
The ppd / Y is the only thing which is the same, but the implications from using a dollar value ( which has ZERO chance of working, ZERO
) as opposed to
MY IDEA OF USING THE COMPUTATIONAL SPEED INCREASE to calculate Y makes ppd / y a totally different formula entirely.
This is where you first corrected
YOUR IDEA OF A DOLLAR VALUE -> viewtopic.php?p=210444#p210444
This is where I made my first suggestion of using computational capabilities -> viewtopic.php?p=210435#p210435 which I made admitting the idea might not be totally original as I remember there being simular discussions about this in the past and this idea might have been brought up there by someone else.
Don't take credit for something which isn't your idea. Unless you can proof you're the one who made a simular posts like mine a long time ago, you're definetly not the one who concieved this idea.
Why do you always come back to me putting a dollar value on it? In post 3 of this thread
I used an economic example as a way of describing/explaining the issue that is present, hell, I also used the concept 'average computing power' as a method of explaining the conceptual issue in order to explain the present issue. Those are methods of calculating the computational speed increase, or quantifying Y, it's not coming up with the fundamental creation of PPDn / Yn. The first time I saw you create a formula (which was 1000/10 and 100/10) was after my post...
In post 10 you made a massive edit (which in my opinion should have been a new post) and stated
MtM wrote:As to not only have critical remarks against your dollar value suggestion, I'll make a suggestion of my own.
You can keep the ppd comparable with previous years and still allow people like me to gather enough information to find the actual processing power if you do two things. Keep all historical projects forever, and benchmark them again with every change to the benchmark machine and publish the speedup factor compared with the previous results. Then use the speedup factor in reverse to set the base credit for new projects.
Results in base credit which will only increase if a project has a higher scientific value ( like how some gpu work unit's are now worth 358 points and some 512 points ), and will still allow people to look up the computational power needed to get that ppd."
The only way I can see that differing from my original concept in post 1 is that we keep projects forever. I have never agreed that they should be kept forever because I don't think that is needed for the concept to work.
MtM wrote:To me it seems like you took my suggestion, complicated it with adding n to both sides of the equation ( and yeah, that means it's exactly the same ) and are doing a whole lot of talking around the issue so to hide this fact.
In post 2 you said that my whole basis was that I want "people to be credited for participation over actual scientific contribution".[/quote]I did add n to both sides of the equation. I did so because it has a fundamental mathematical basis - that is, n represents the time period. I cannot see where you wrote PPD/Y anywhere before I did. I can see you conceptualising it, but that is just the same as I did in my first post?
k1wi wrote:Furthermore, I've never proposed running the one project across all clients!
Maybe other people are subconsiously reading some ( parts ) of my suggestions and attributing them to you as well
That wouldn't suprise me as it sounds like something which could happen if you claim other parts of my suggestions are indeed actually your own.[/quote]
MtM - When I say "my proposal" I mean what I proposed in the original post. That is that "the easiest way to keep 'PPD inflation' from going nuclear, is to adjust the benchmark machine to the rate of CPU Improvement. At a defined interval (annually is probably too infrequent, but monthly may be too frequently), adjust the benchmark machine's PPD to reflect the improvements of computing power."
Which, as has been refined means PPDn / Yn where Y is the relative improvement in technology and n is the time period in which we are measuring. "My proposal", as I have used it progressively, makes it clear that that formula does not deal with the issue of how PG determines computational improvement. I discussed how they could could determine computational improvement, because people like yourself asked me how it could be done, but "my proposal" actually leaves that to PG to determine, because they have the tools to develop the most appropriate methodology.
I have put this to the community in it's infancy because I did not have a completed proposal. I put it to the community so that the community could improve it faster than I would be able to formulate it on my own. So that by the end of it I can explain better what I am suggesting, based on the back and forth of robust conversation. I know that others have put similar suggestions to the community in the past, but I also know that those suggestions were killed off by people who think their "proposal already falls apart." People who used their conceptual disagreement with it to kill it rather than to improve it. Because of those people, the people suggesting it have gotten to page 5 and said "to hell with it, let bruce close it, nothing will change."
Do you think that if PG adopts this I want it to be known as the k1wi adjustment? No, but that is what you seem to be suggesting that I am doing. Do you want the formula to be "yours"?
Will it be the concept that has been brought up for the nth time and persevered with until some sort of workable concept was made? Yes.
Does what ever final concept include the musings and input of every contributor to the thread? Yes.
Am I spending a lot of time replying to your posts because I think you are bringing up a lot of points of discussion that need to be defended/explained? Yes.
Do I apologise if there are typos, things I could phrase better in my posts and points that I miss? Yes, but in response to your posts I am writing near essays of 16 lines per page and attempting to answer numerous specific points.
You stated you do not agree with the proposal. I do respect that despite disagreeing with it you are wanting to find holes in it and as I have made clear to you publicly and privately, I do appreciate the passion in which you approach forum discussions.