7im wrote:WU sizes vary from very small to very large, so the count of WUs completed is not representative of any kind of standard performance. You can't use that in any type of rewards system.
Hey, I don't know the specifics but I do know that if there is a will, there is a way. All I'm saying is that the emphasis needs to move from competition (based off of WUs) to contributions (thread time).
7im wrote:The amount of time donated is also NOT a good judge of performance. Would you make the time donated on a pentium 3 the same as a pentium 4? OR, would you make the amount of time donated on a P4 that ran FAH at 100% CPU usage the same as the exact P4 that does both folding 50% of the time along with word processing, and web surfing? Obviously none of those are equitable for assigning points.
It is not meant to be. Any type of performance calculations are heavily biased on the various clients and how well they interact with given hardware.
Yes, I would make all time equal because a second is a second is a second. Again, the hardware isn't what counts, it is the effort. If a million P2 computers started folding because their time is valuable, F@H becomes that more effective. Most people won't do that because of associated costs but those that only have P2 processors available to them, their contribution should be considered as valuable as those with a QX9770. In fact, the P2 contibution should be seen as more valuable because the work they do on that computer is penalized by the F@H client taking up most of their clocks. Just because most people don't have the latest and greatest hardware shouldn't mean they can't be competitive in one respect. As I suggested previously, what really needs to happen is two separate scoring systems based off the same figures. One promotes contributions and one promotes competitions.
7im wrote:And total time, or total threads, or total anything goes out the door when you start comparing the differences in the efficiency of the processors doing the work. A Core 2 Duo can process SSE instructions twice as fast as a pentium 4. And because the fah work units are highly optimized to process faster using SSE instructions, that means C2D owners will produce twice as much science as a P4 owner. So if you don't give the C2D owner twice as many points, there is a disincentive for the C2D owner to fold, and that's not good for the project either.
Another great example of how scores should diminish in responsibility and contributions in the form of time should increase. Your example is a good one too because of the linear pattern computers are going in. That Core 2 Duo would produce twice as much time because it could have two threads running simutaneously as compared to the Pentium 4. GPUs are also going to be heading in that direction too with Larrabee.
7im wrote:Look. Let me break it down for YOU how the current points system DOES work.
Only if you have an 8, 9, or GTX series NVIDIA graphics card.
7im wrote:Equal pay for equal work.
Each one of my quad-core processors use about the same amount of power as a single 8800 GT, yet it can only produce, at maximum, 400 points/day while my 8800 GT, in the same period, produces upwards of 10x as much. The work is about the same in terms of power consumption but the 8800 GT is being paid 10x as much for it. So no, it is far from "equal pay for equal work." The only thing that
is equal is the time. For instance, if they both donate 10 hours, they both donate 10 hours. It really is that simple.
7im wrote:So, work unit A takes 2 days to fold on the benchmark computer. So that work units is assigned 220 points. Now, if you fold that work unit on a really fast computer, you can complete that work unit in 18 hours and get 220 points. Now if you have an older computer, you can complete that work unit in 5 days, and still get 220 points. Each person gets the SAME total number of points for completing the SAME number of work units, regardless of the time spent and regardless of the hardware type. Equal pay for equal work completed. Nothing is more fair than that.
IMO, benchmarks aren't necessary. 10 hours of donated work time is 10 hours. If you can't find it work to do in that 10 hours, it's their loss. Regardless, the time was still donated. Look at it as like a volunteer job where instead of getting paid on dollars and cents, you're paid in points per second/minute/hour/day donated. Just like in a job, it really doesn't matter how hard you work so long as you work. The pay is the same unless you get promoted (which I wouldn't rule out as being a possibility for competition sake).
7im wrote:So when you say that the high value of the GPU points devalues the CPU points, you are completely neglecting the value of the science in that comparison. You can't just hold up a large number in one hand, and a small number in the other hand and say, "Look at these numbers, they are unfair." Of course the numbers are very different. One is large, the other is small. But if you hold up BOTH the science produced and the points assigned in each of your hands, then the comparison looks proportional. You get big points with big science, and small points with small science. It's only logical.
Again, that's completely biased towards the client and how it interacts with the hardware. Why should the user's score be belittled just because the client and WU perfers a GPU more so than their CPU. In my opinion, the scientific output is completely outside of the users locus of control and as such, should not be weighed into the score.