Folding needs the Colbert Bump

[spazzychalk]

look how she worked him. you could do soemthing like this http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colber ... queen-noor

[bruce]

This is a good idea - but Folding at Home is simply not ready for the general public. I consider myself the general public. I was running two cpu clients for my dual core. Finding the instruction (there arn't any) for running two cpu lients at the same time was a pain in the ass and I had to figure out a way following multiple gpu instructions.

It's more a matter of managing expectations. . . .and you're expecting too much. You stopped being General Public as soon as you tried to install a second client. You don't need that to be able to contribute.

As soon as you start talking about the GPU client or the SMP client (or even two cpu clients), you're no longer the general public. Installing a single CPU client is dead-simple and as soon as somebody asks about why it's only using 50% or 25% of their CPU, they're no longer talking about simple. Nevertheless, the WIKI has an old example of how to install two clients. I have not reviewed it recently, so maybe it needs some updating, but that's the absolute end of anything that applies to the General Public, and maybe not even that.

Foldingforum.org is here for the geeks who want to try unreleased clients or want to get more points than the general public is able to get.

[whynot]

Foldingforum.org is here for the geeks who want to try unreleased clients or want to get more points than the general public is able to get.

Thus foldingforum.org isn't for me? Is it official?

[bruce]

Foldingforum.org is here for anybody. My point was that getting the standard client to run is simple and for the "general public" they can probably set it up without assistance. If you want more than that, it can get complicated and foldingforum.org is here for anyone who wants help with the complexities.

This was in response to a question about why FAH isn't simple -- and I'm saying that it is simple -- for anyone who runs the standard client. If you choose to run another client, that's your choice, but after you make that choice, recognize the fact that you have also chosen an increased level of complexity.

[spazzychalk]

and assumingly an increased skillset inherent to your computer knowledge

[whynot]

Foldingforum.org is here for anybody. My point was that getting the standard client to run is simple and for the "general public" they can probably set it up without assistance.

I can't comment about capabilities of "general public" of parallel crapware world. Neither I know requirements. As of my world -- define "general public". Looking at those ubuntukas, I would dare to ask -- If you know how to furnish a terminal, are you still a "general public"?

If you want more than that, it can get complicated and foldingforum.org is here for anyone who wants help with the complexities.

I've asked after a bit of research. I've failed to find something like Term-of-Service, kind of Manifest, README.NOW, whatever. And AFAICS, folding-forum is really all about points. So my question still applies. Maybe that would be better for everyone me sticking with those w/WU and w/Server forums and let everybody discuss points?

[bruce]

No, folding-forum is not all about points. For example, search the forum for the lists of "known bugs" Each one of those bugs was reported here and from the reports we figured out enough about it to be able to report it. Similarly, look at the forum for problems with a WU or problems with a server and look at the number of issues that are referred to the Pande Group or the number of issues that turn out to be a problem on the donor's computer.

I certainly agree that many of the discussions are about maximizing points. Most people approach that issue from the perspective of maximizing their contribution to FAH since points are a measure of the work you're completing (though certainly not a perfect measure).

How do you suggest we should restructure the forum so that topics which maximize the total benefit to science is part of an "approved" (by you) discussion as long as points ("disapproved" by you) isn't mentioned?

Let's see . . . We started out talking about getting more donors . . . then we moved to "FAH is too complicated" . . . and now you're deciding that the forum policy doesn't meet your standards. I'd call that off-topic. Perhaps we should make that a new topic for discussion somewhere else?

[mexpedip]

Bruce - complicated and getting more donors goes hand in hand. Like most people (I would guess) I jumped into this with a great deal of enthusiasm which quickly turned into a desire to complete more WU per day which quickly morphed into an obsession just to make the damn thing work with multiple clients. I would guess that I am slightly above average in regard to computers and computer technology but this has not been an easy process and wound up costing me more money then I would have guessed.

There are no clear instructions except that the gui interface for the uniprocessor is pretty simple. When anyone asks for some clarity the general response is "check mhouston's posts" or "look at this thread". Don't be offended by any of this but I get the distinct feeling that this is a group of people who have been doing this for awhile and want everyone to go through the same "breaking in" period. The simple answer to all of this is just make instructions that are easy to use and understand. Let's face it, the people who install just the uniprocessor client or just the gpu client are the ones who run this for 2 weeks, get bored and then stop. Here is what should be posted as easy to find instructions with screen shots. (this is all for windows since the "average user" probably has no idea what linux is, including me)

1) Installing the uniprocessor gui.
a) installing multiple uniprocessor clients and be especially clear that the 2,3,4 have to be the console version
2) Installing the GPU client
a) installing multiple gpu clients
3) installing SMP client - although I do not think there is a clear, easy way to do this. it made me start drinking, heavily.
a) installing multiple smp client for those with the core i7 (I could be wrong about that)
4) installing the PS3 stuff (no idea here)
5) maybe this should be number 1. general hardware requirements. ie: a computer that can be turned on, gpu requirements and especially gpu requirements for running multiple gpu's. One of the most frustrating things I have run into since I started was the limitations regarding the multiple gpu's that can be used. ie: they must have the same number of stream processors, have to be all ati or all nvidia etc.


Initially you might think all this is here and it probably is somewhere but if and where is never easy to find. I don't know who you can get to take on a project like this but I am sure the best way to do it would be to get a more seasoned person and an average user together to collaborate so the instructions are accurate and easy to understand. If anyone is interested I would be willing to be the dumb guy in the uniprocessor and gpu team. I know both of them are easy as it is but for anyone interested in going beyond the initial install it gets confusing fast.

[Zagen30]

None of these count as relatively easy to find instructions with screenshots? http://folding.stanford.edu/English/Guide

Maybe there should be a link on the home page (not the list of pages at the top, I'm talking about somewhere under "Our Goal:...") for people who don't equate "Guides" with "Instructions on how to isntall the clients", but I fail to see how most of what you asked for isn't provided. 1a, 3a, and the shaders having to be equal in number are the only ones that I don't think are covered in the guides, and chances are at this point in time that if you have a Core i7 you're not an average computer user.

[mexpedip]

It's not that it is not provided but it all resides in different places. I was unable to get smp to work with the instructions given here and had to find part in the wiki and the other part in a folding teams forum. This isn't worth arguing about. I am just stating observations I had while starting this 2 or 3 weeks ago. I'll say this clearly so it is not misunderstood, the guides (instructions if it makes you feel better) exist, they are not always accurate and they are not all located in one place and a user can usually find 2 or 3 different set of instructions for each process. All I am suggesting is that they be dumbed down and put in a logical order other then forcing people to go search for them. If you want more people participating then you or someone will have to do it, if you don't then keep it as is. I know I have tried to get a few people to participate in this and they get too frustrated quickly and stop. No, they are not computer savvy. here is the thing that everyone seems to forget, you are asking people to donate their time and resources to a project that is difficult to understand, has very few real world results and is technically challenging to make work correctly. Why is it too much to ask to have clear, easy to understand instructions for each part of this along with clear requirements?

for the record, a core i7 dell or gateway (probably HP as well) can be purchased in a big box store for under $1k. It's not an enthusiasts cpu anymore.

[Zagen30]

The Pande Group has always made it clear that SMP folding is an advanced process and not something that beginners are recommended to try right out of the gate, especially since the Windows version is still in beta. I would imagine this would be doubly so for multi-SMP folding, which doesn't work properly in Windows anyway what with the inability to properly close one out of two SMP clients without trashing the other one's WU.

[codysluder]

The Pande Group has always made it clear that SMP folding is an advanced process and not something that beginners are recommended to try right out of the gate, especially since the Windows version is still in beta. I would imagine this would be doubly so for multi-SMP folding, which doesn't work properly in Windows anyway what with the inability to properly close one out of two SMP clients without trashing the other one's WU.

I agree. You can't expect to have clear concise easy-to-use all-in-one-place instructions for Beta software, whether it's the Windows SMP client or the GPU client and getting those clients to work can be a challenge for anybody. The list of known bugs is one place to start. Similarly, running multiple clients (other than perhaps multiple uniprocessor clients can be a real challenge.

I think you guys have forgotten that any donation is better than no donations. I've seen several discussions where someone answers a question with some kind of statement saying start with the uniprocessor client and run it until you're comfortable with how it works and then undertake something more complicated only if you're sure you are up to the challenge.

[7im]

1) Installing the uniprocessor gui.
a) installing multiple uniprocessor clients and be especially clear that the 2,3,4 have to be the console version
2) Installing the GPU client
a) installing multiple gpu clients
3) installing SMP client - although I do not think there is a clear, easy way to do this. it made me start drinking, heavily.
a) installing multiple smp client for those with the core i7 (I could be wrong about that)
4) installing the PS3 stuff (no idea here)
5) maybe this should be number 1. general hardware requirements. ie: a computer that can be turned on, gpu requirements and especially gpu requirements for running multiple gpu's. One of the most frustrating things I have run into since I started was the limitations regarding the multiple gpu's that can be used. ie: they must have the same number of stream processors, have to be all ati or all nvidia etc.

1. The guide for #1 already exists on the home page, for both the console client and the systray client. http://folding.stanford.edu/English/WinUNIGuide

1a - Yes, a guide for installing multiple CPU clients is needed. However, 2, 3, 4 etc do NOT have to be console clients. You can install multiple copies of the Systray client. Most people with multi-cored processor tend to want to use the SMP client instead, so the need for this guide is not very high.

2. This exists already. http://folding.stanford.edu/English/WinGPUGuide
2a. http://folding.stanford.edu/English/WinGPUGuide#ntoc4

3. No, SMP is NOT easy. Hence the warning on the download page that SMP is for advanced users. The guide is here: http://folding.stanford.edu/English/WinSMPGuideMPICH
3a. Multiple SMP Win clients is not supported by the project. It works most of the time, but again, this is for really advanced users.

4. PS3 guide is here: http://folding.stanford.edu/English/PS3Guide

5. IIRC, they don't all have to have the same number of stream processors, but I could be wrong there. And most people do buy all ATI or all NV. Again, you're getting in to advanced setups, and there are NO easy instructions for advanced setups.

And the guy that put those guides together hasn't been around much to keep them updated. Sorry.

I don't disagree with you, the guides can always be improved, and better guides would help the project more. We should try to eliminate as many hurdles as possible for people who want to install these clients. But what we have isn't half bad, and works well for the intended audiences. Most of that writing is done by volunteers. Several of us forum users can make updates to those GUIDE pages, so if you'd like to volunteer to make some suggestions, feel free to post your edits in the forum. If you need a major rewrite, you should probably send a PM to the user who assembled the original Guide pages from multiple locations... Xilikon

[spazzychalk]

I DECLARE MY THREAD HIJACKED

[John Naylor]

@spazzychalk

Maybe, but you could argue that deficiencies in the guides are a reason why FAH is not ready for something like the colbert bump yet... Otherwise we'd have loads of people joining the project and then becoming disillusioned if they can't get it to work, and leaving. That does kind of miss the point of something like the colbert bump lol